Don't use logic or bible texts on Maze or he will stop responding to the thread (I have 2 outstanding threads Maze). As usual, Maze quotes out of context bible scriptures and uses Watchtower publications to support his viewpoint. Maze should investigate what the Bible really has to say in context of the era and the belief systems back then instead of believing the Watchtower fables that first century Christians were adherents of the F&DS calling themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" who went from door to door with the scrolls in hand.
Anony Mous
JoinedPosts by Anony Mous
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Blood
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i have been doing a lot of mind searching on the issue of blood.
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Real Jehovah's Witnesses (djeggnog, StandFirm, etc), I'm trying to understand you.
by pirata ini'm an active jehovah's witness.
i've obviously lost my faith, that's why i don't feel bad posting here anymore.
i'd probably be disfellowshipped as a division causing, teaching, apostate, faster than you can say "maher-shalal-hash-baz" (isaiah 8:1), should it be found out that i was posting here and did not repent of the things i've said and stop participating in this forum.
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Anony Mous
Thought reform in the context Romans 12:2 means displaying the fruitage of God's spirit and putting away the works of the flesh; a personality change.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
Stop doing bad and start doing good is not a personality change or thought reform. It is a change in certain specific conduct (the bad) to the benefit of self and society, does not mean your personality has changed nor that you have to stop doing the good you were already doing or be 'more holy' than before.
On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:19-24The word moreover signifies that there are going to be others. As Paul himself stated, the people in the world already do these things without God's law, Christians therefore shouldn't be doing them because they do have law. You mention kindness, peace and long-suffering. When somebody does wrong, does this not mean that you should be kind and long suffering with them, promoting peace, not kicking them out of all social relationships.
Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Colossians 3:9-11
JW's reject that Christ is all things (omnipresent, omniscient) and in all (incarnated).
The fruitage of God's spirit and a Christ-like personality does not operate against free will.
Exactly my point
Jehovah's Witnesses do adhere to the original Bible renderings. The Bible contains a perfect message from God. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures conveys this message as close to perfection as any Bible rendering.
Except where scholars have found that their translation is plain wrong and serving the interest of JW doctrine only.
All of Jehovah's Witnesses receive God's spirit when interpreting God's word. This is why the agree with the faithful and discreet slave's interpretation.
Somebody already answered this
Christendom’s churches are not agreement with each other, nor is their membership in agreement within subdivisions of the same denomination.
Neither are JW's, evident by this website
You completely took what was stated in the August Kingdom Ministry out of context. This information is referring to a person who is disfellowshipped, not simply an unbelieving family member.
I took a note from the F&DS that regularly takes things out of context. But my point stands, when one is DF'ed especially if they DA themselves, they are no longer a Jehovah's Witness but just an unbelieving family member don't you agree.
And what would a scripture like this say? The Bible identifies Jehovah's servants by name.
Please prove me where Watchtower Inc or any of the corporations are mentioned in the Bible. Look up what the first century Christians called themselves and compare
Jehovah's Organization is the only organization that teaches the truth about the Bible as Jesus instructed.
Except where it doesn't fit their needs. Jesus taught love.
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JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions
by Retrovirus inin the thread about the wt in russia, maze made the assertions below.. .
jehovah's witnesses as an organization acts as a protection to the family unit.
andthe lie that jehovah's witnesses ruin families is apostate poison.. to aviod derailing that thread, i ask maze to defend them here.. my experience is that the jw religion destroyed my brothers' marriage.
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Anony Mous
Maze, have you lost your tongue/fingers?
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Books Missing From Libraries
by FrankWTower indoes anyone know if it's wt policy to exclude certain volumes of watchtower/awake magazines or other literature from the kingdom hall libraries?.
i was doing some research to confirm some of what i've seen online but many key publications are missing from the kh library.. other stuff i checked for was completely different from what's shown on scans and images from jwfacts.org and other sites..
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Anony Mous
In my hall somebody added the original Scriptures in the Studies books (Vol. 1 & 3 I believe) to our library after the big cleanup in the '90's (the Truth book and several sets of Watchtowers disappeared around that time in many congregations) so we now have two sets.
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Real Jehovah's Witnesses (djeggnog, StandFirm, etc), I'm trying to understand you.
by pirata ini'm an active jehovah's witness.
i've obviously lost my faith, that's why i don't feel bad posting here anymore.
i'd probably be disfellowshipped as a division causing, teaching, apostate, faster than you can say "maher-shalal-hash-baz" (isaiah 8:1), should it be found out that i was posting here and did not repent of the things i've said and stop participating in this forum.
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Anony Mous
The Truth and God's active force has a transforming power that includes “thought reform” (not brainwashing) and there's nothing wrong with that.
Thought reform is a synonym to brainwashing.
Romans 12:2 - This does not mean that brainwashing or thought reform by an external organization is required or approved off. Most will agree that this is changing our minds over in coordination with God and Jesus, not for the purpose of getting us to think and act against our will.
You perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave as “manipulation” because you disagree with it.
No, I perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave that is not backed up by the original biblical text as manipulation of the bible text to fit their needs.
Just because Jehovah's Witnesses do agree with what the Bible and the slave class teaches doesn't mean they're being controlled by a human agency.
What you just stated is a dichotomy. If they agree with what the self-appointed slave class teaches and interprets for them, then they are being controlled by a human agency. If they agree with what the biblical text says and interpret it for themselves, then they leave the Jehovah's Witnesses as the articles I quoted clearly show you.
Many organizations have a body of laws and a code of conduct required to remain in good standing in the organization.
Straw man argument typically used to defend shunning. Many organizations have a code of conduct which can get you expelled, most organizations do not have a set of punishments when somebody breaks the code of conduct. Very few organizations (actually only cults) use shunning as a deterrent to leaving their organization or breaking their codes of conduct.
There's nothing that suggests one of Jehovah's Witnesses should cut off contact with friends and family upon becoming a Witness.
And I quote KM Aug 2002: Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with such a [non-witness] person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant ... The bond between family members can be very strong. This brings a test upon a Christian when a marriage mate, a child, a parent, or another close relative is [not one of Jehovah's Witnesses]
From the articles you quoted it is very clear that the ulterior motive of contact with the family is to talk about the faith and extending it.
Those outside of Jehovah's Organization don't receive this spirit.
Prove from the Bible that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization accepted by God. One of the proofs would be that none of their doctrines, prophecies and actions are neither wrong, false nor change.
This doesn't mean the Watchtower Society condemns research outside of what is published by the faithful and discreet slave.
I quoted you several WT articles to the contrary
As a matter of fact, the Watchtower writing committee researches and quotes from worldly sources all of the time.
They misquote a lot of sources first of all, they do not research nor quote opposing viewpoints and it's only the WT writing committee that is allowed to do so per the several WT articles I quoted earlier.
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i have finally decided to "give up " on jw family !
by looloo inmy inlaws have now not visited my child of 7 for more than 2 years since we moved a half hour drive away as i didnt want to live in the same town as my other childs abuser (an ex min servant ) after he was released from prison !
they only visited once and i made it clear that they were welcome anytime as they left , since then they havnt bothered but have told people that i dont allow them to see my child , which is not true .
my mother in law tried to give some money to my child recently through her disfellowshipped son but he asked "why ?
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Anony Mous
At that age, most likely you care more about it than your child does. My dad abandoned us when I was 4 and had visitation but only came through 1/4th of the time until I was 12. My grandparents moved to another country when I was 10, my other grandparents were likewise not interested and lived an hour or 2 away. I never really cared. Just forget about them, they're not worth it.
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Will you be attending a "Rapture" party?
by Snoozy inmany others will apparently:.
http://raptureparty.org/.
why are atheists celebrating the rapture?
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Anony Mous
Some of the current-day computers will have some issues in 2038 if they're still around. That's when the wrap-around comes of the 32-bit integer against Unix time.
For the rest I'm not too worried. One thing I never understood about the rapture is: what will happen to those still here? Will society self-destruct? Or is this hell? If so, why did God place us in hell to begin with?
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Advice needed about my study with a JW.
by Resistance is Futile ini've never been a jw, and i'm having a difficult time trying to understand the perspective of a born-in jw.
i want to ask questions that will cause this family member to began to think outside the box, but i don't want to trip off any apostate alarms and have him put his guard up.
i also don't want to waste time and energy asking questions that he can easily brush off and give the prepackaged watchtower answer without having to really think.
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Anony Mous
Ask about benign things ever body knows like the flood and the scientific evidence for a flood 6000 years ago. Also ask if you can study the bible with him WITHOUT publications - it's impossible for them to do so, most likely he will reject your offer - and if he does, research the subject or scripture you will be talking about well in advance with sound, logical arguments. De-programming of a deep-in member is done by creating cognitive dissonance brought on by themselves.
Be careful how hard you go in however, we have a 'sister' in our hall that has developed what seems to be a form of schizophrenia due to it. I'm not diagnosing her, just how she acts and treats others in the congregation and how she acts and treats her children at home now after they disfellowshipped all her children, she seems to be able to pull these two worlds apart in her mind and justify both but behaves very erratic to the point where she is currently on meds and active psychiatric counseling.
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Real Jehovah's Witnesses (djeggnog, StandFirm, etc), I'm trying to understand you.
by pirata ini'm an active jehovah's witness.
i've obviously lost my faith, that's why i don't feel bad posting here anymore.
i'd probably be disfellowshipped as a division causing, teaching, apostate, faster than you can say "maher-shalal-hash-baz" (isaiah 8:1), should it be found out that i was posting here and did not repent of the things i've said and stop participating in this forum.
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Anony Mous
@Maze:
Please answer your other thread on family too please.
The Watchtower Society may encourage the wise use of a person's time, but I haven't noticed the discouragement of research outside the Society's publications because the Governing Body fears outside influences. That type of thinking is the thought process that Jehovah's Witnesses are under the umbrella of mind control. This is science fiction as there's no scientific theory, let alone, evidence for “mind control.”
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".
This process is well documented and not science fiction, it is studied often in view of (counter)intelligence, cults and so-called religions where people suddenly decide to cut off all contact to the outside even (non-believer) family. It is not a 'disease' but it is definitely a concept that is actively being used by certain groups and being studied by veritable scientists. Unless off course you're a Scientologist that rejects that psychology is real and scientific.
As far as the WTBTS discouraging people from studying outside the WTBTS:
“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.”—The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587
“We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.”—The Watchtower, February 15, 1981, p. 19
“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorseindependent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47. No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to doindependent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued anindependent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. …They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. …Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight… For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, ‘All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,’ and our other publications….”—Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p. 3
“They say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago…”—The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, pp. 28-29
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone , though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.” —The Watch Tower, September 15, 1910, p. 298, Watchtower Reprints, p. 4685
“On occasion opposers will question the various teachings that Jehovah’s people hold in common… They will declare that all one needs to do is to read the Bible. But Christendom has been reading the Bible for centuries.” —The Watchtower, March 1, 1983, p. 25
“We must not lose sight of the fact that God is directing his organization… To turn away from Jehovah and his organization, to spurn the direction of ‘the faithful and discreet slave,’ and to rely simply on personal Bible reading and interpretation is to become like a solitary tree in a parched land.”—The Watchtower, June 1, 1985, pp. 19-20
“Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using,we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.”—The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, p. 27
How come that EVERYONE (their words, not mine) that reads the bible directly and objectively rejects the WTBTS as false even if they've been studying since they were little children? I still can't see how you apologists can't see the evidence in the bible and think for yourself, look for example on the subject of disfellowshipping in the Watchtower 2 or 3 weeks ago. How many bible verses do you find directly supporting shunning in the last 5 paragraphs of that study? As a matter of fact, how many bible verses do you find at all in the last 5 paragraphs? As a comparison, average out the number of verses quoted (not that I'm saying they quote and interpret the context correctly as well) in other paragraphs of the same study or other studies not talking about shunning.
“If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. ‘New light’ never extinguished older ‘light,’ but adds to it.... So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another.” — Zion’s Watch Tower, February 1881, p. 3
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How do I help my best friend who just told me he is gay?
by justwantohelp ina little background for you.... my best friend (a 44 year old baptised jw with a wife & 2 preteen boys) told me a few days ago that he is gay.
to me, not a big deal as i am also.
but, he is so tormented by this with regard to his relationship with god.
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Anony Mous
At best, if his local congregation gets to hear of it if he has any privileges in the congregation he will lose them and he will be on silent reproof (no privileges at all, not even handling microphones) until he changes his sexuality. Yes you can be 'half-open' gay but you can not have any privileges with it. If you are openly gay and advertise this to others in the congregation you will most likely be considered an apostate and be treated as such (disfellowshipping & shunning).
If he acted upon them recently and admits this to the leadership in his congregation, he will be disfellowshipped (shunned) by all his friends and family for at least 6 months and if he does not change his sexuality, coming back will be harder than those that just 'sinned' between man and woman. The reason he will be disfellowshipped even though he may be repentant of his actions is because he is not (and probably can not) be repentant of his sexuality.
Depending on where you live he might have some leeway if the congregation is very liberal (eg. in Europe) but in the US and most Latin countries at least one macho will have his manhood offended by his sexuality. Offending an elder during a Judicial Committee will almost always result in a disfellowshipping.
If it gets out into the rank&file of his congregation he will be forever stamped as such and will be treated as a leper by most. Some think gays are sexually deviant (as that is the official stance of the WTBTS) so they'll keep their children away as well so if he has children, they will be affected as well and isolated from the rest (they are already isolated from society).
I am an active Jehovah's Witness with very intimate knowledge of the way Judicial Committee's go and how things get decided.